Embracing Change: Why What Got Us Here Won't Get Us There

Anthony Perl: 00:00:01

Embracing change.

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Why?

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What got us here won't get us there.

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In this episode, John Tokin from Brain in

A Box confronts the reality that change

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is accelerating at an unprecedented pace.

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Drawing from his research on

adaptation during economic shifts.

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John explores how companies

must evolve continuously.

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Rather than jumping into

predetermined solutions, you'll

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discover why the speed of change

has accelerated beyond recognition.

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Learn three different approaches when

facing transformation challenges,

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and understand how to build adaptive

systems that evolve continuously.

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Discover why, what?

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Got us here, won't get us there

and learn practical strategies

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for building operations that

transform alongside your business.

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I'm your co-host, Anthony Pearl, and

this is the Systems From The Box Podcast.

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Let's start unpacking, John.

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We've never done it this way before.

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Is that a leading question?

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Well, clearly for those that

are listening, you didn't get

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to see John's facial expression.

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Then for those that are, for those that

might watch this in a short video, then

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you'll get to see the joys of that.

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That's a horror question that you must,

you must get thrown at you all the time.

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Yeah.

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John Tonkin: It really is that,

and that's, to me, when people

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say that, it's always a precursor.

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I'm gonna have to watch really

carefully now because I'm gonna be

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thinking, what are you changing?

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What is different?

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What's hurting?

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What's gonna be done?

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What's gonna catch me out?

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What aren't I ready for?

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All of those things.

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So really gotta be making sure

that we're ready, you know,

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ready to go there and so on.

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So the big thing about it is it's change.

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You know?

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If we think about change, everyone

has to be ready for change.

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Change is inevitable.

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What's the old one there from?

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What was it?

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George Bernard Shaw, whoever it was.

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The only thing that's definite

in life is death and taxes.

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I don't think it was him.

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I think it was somebody before him.

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Probably was, but anyway, whoever

it was, it's a really good thing.

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But the biggest thing these

days is that there's, the speed

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of change is very, very fast.

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Things that changed before

were changed are slower.

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You know, like you'd, there's

a new type of car coming out.

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Oh, look at that new car.

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Whereas now, when was the last

time somebody commented on new car?

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There are new cars coming out

every 10 seconds, you know?

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And then you find out, oh, there have been

a hundred new cars come out since that.

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So on.

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So you know, the speed of

change is so much faster.

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We've got changes that

come from everywhere.

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We've got, you know, changes in

legislation, code of practice.

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We've got best practice benchmarking.

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We've got new materials, new technology,

new fashions, new new thinking,

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new tools we use, knew everything.

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And to me, it's a matter of

understanding that everything is going

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to change all the way I remember.

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Doing a a paper back in 1992

publishing the paper and it was

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called Same company, same name, same

company name, different company.

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That's right.

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Okay.

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So it was same company

name, different company.

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And I put some models there and

it was how people responded to

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the mini recession we had in 92.

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And it was looking at what businesses did.

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Some businesses would come

in and they say, we are.

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Profile a imagine a circle

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and things aren't working

the way we expect them to.

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We have to change.

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And so they would change into what

they thought was the ideal one.

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They would change to option B.

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So from a circle to a square, if you

like, because they knew exactly what shape

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it had to be or so they thought, 'cause

we had that predictability back then,

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we thought this is what it will be now.

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And then someone else would be

saying, oh, well this isn't working.

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So they start off as a circle, but

it will work if we just take out

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that little chunk and that bit there

and don't do this, then it'll work.

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So in other words, imagine that circle

being an apple and what they're doing

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is to bite out the bits they don't like

doing and oh good, we can manage that.

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That'll work and it'll be fine.

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But then what the focus of my paper was

that really we start off with a circle.

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We're going forward.

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We don't know what the next shape.

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So I had in my pretty picture, I had

about 10 little images going from a

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circle gradually towards a a square and

then into a star or something or other.

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But all the shapes gradually

trans are morphing towards that.

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And it's really, we dunno

where it's going to end.

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So if we started out as a circle

when we started our business.

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You can guarantee it's not

gonna be a square right now.

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It's probably gone well past a square.

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It's gonna be something else than

something else, than something else.

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And we've just gotta

have that quote there.

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There's a great, great quote I had

there that goes a little bit like this.

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We're thinking, you know, learning

and innovation go hand in hand.

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The arrogance of success is to

think that what you did yesterday

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will be sufficient for tomorrow.

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So, you know, the, that which

got us here today, oh, we

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just do that again, don't we?

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We just, you know, make the

same change and it'll be okay.

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The trouble is it's very rarely

going to be the same next time.

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So we have to have that expectation

of change and that understanding that

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everything's gonna change, that's gonna

change in our business, and therefore

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it's gonna change in our systems.

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And we have to be open to that.

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And our team has to be open to that.

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We have to have that idea to

them very, you know, front

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of mind for them, which is.

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Guys, if we're changing something,

changing materials, for instance,

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we're going to have to actually

see whether we need to update the

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systems to work with that update.

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Something that says, oh, our testing

now needs to be different because

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we're using a different material there.

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It's harder, softer, whatever than

the other one we were using before.

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So we have to be ready on all those

different fronts just to make sure that.

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We don't end up with this thing

that, nope, it always goes this

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way because believe me, it doesn't.

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And if you think about it, everything

that is old now was once a fantastic

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inci, exciting, inspiring, new invention.

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You know, Unifor writing, now it's so

old and everything else, but at some

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stage, geez, did you know there's a

guy down the road who invented uniform?

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Isn't he a clever guy?

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I saw it on the telly.

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Oh, a wrong, wrong period.

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But you know, it's, if we've gotta have

that idea that we are going to expect

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change and change is inevitable, we

have to invite it and be ready for it

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rather than, Nope, this'll be the delay.

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This'll be like this forever now.

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It'll be fine.

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So it's really quite interesting

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Anthony Perl: and it's the reality,

isn't it, that we live in, uh, a time

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of accelerated change in many respects.

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There are so many things that are coming

in as far as technology is concerned.

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So, you know, what worked

yesterday, you're right, isn't

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necessarily going to work tomorrow.

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And it's important to be

able to be willing to adapt.

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So that whole idea that, you

know, we'd never, we've never

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done it this way before.

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It's kind of a reality

that's going to be the case.

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It might be incrementally rather than

we, you know, something that is okay, we

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are just throwing the whole system out.

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We're doing something

completely new today.

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John Tonkin: Yeah.

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Anthony Perl: But incrementally,

you're going to see that change

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and if you look back, you know, in

six months time and what you were

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doing a year ago, then you'll see

that it could have been a huge leap.

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John Tonkin: Yep, exactly.

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And you know it's real.

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You're seeing it all the time.

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I remember.

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One of the first clients I ever had,

my first business was a business,

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a company making aftermarket

fiberglass parts for cars.

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And there were spoilers and little

trim bits to go on the side and so on.

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And they used to use acure, you know, uh,

a, a glue, a wood glue for as a release

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agent in these molds and so on, in the

molds for the fiberglass and so on.

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And the.

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A guy who owned the business, who

had started the business was saying,

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no, no, no, let's get some equity.

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We'll use that.

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And then the guys are saying, no,

it doesn't work properly anymore.

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There's something better,

whatever that was, and so on.

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And we had to overcome that

change, that desire to change

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there, that rigidity and so on.

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So it's that flexibility

we've gotta build towards.

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But you know, why do people change,

react to change so negatively?

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I mean, this person wasn't a fear of

failure or anything like that with him.

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It was more a matter of, but.

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This worked before.

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I know what it is.

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I've done this before.

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So we're overcoming that momentum

of, I've done it before, but

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we do have a fear of failure.

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That's one of the reasons

why people don't like change.

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We've got a fear of loss of significance.

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Like at the moment, everyone comes to me

because I'm the only person who can do

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this properly and now they're not coming

to me and it's a negative thing as from

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me because I'm not that important anymore.

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We have a, some people.

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React to negative to change so

negatively because they're, they've

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got a super high stability focus.

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You know, the, the s in the disc analysis,

if you like, they don't like change,

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don't like anything to be different.

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It always has to go this way,

you know, three steps more.

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And they'll be saying, no, no,

no, you put in the wrong place.

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Come back there please.

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And we have those people who

have discomfort with changing the

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way home or walking a new path.

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You know, it's just that

thing we've gotta overcome.

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But really, you know, it comes

down to people don't change.

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They just don't like being changed.

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People love being people like change.

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They hate being changed.

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So really

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Anthony Perl: comes down to that.

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Hey John, I just wanna take a break

from the main part of the podcast

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for a moment so you can tell us a

little bit more about Brain In A Box.

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John Tonkin: So Brain In A Box started.

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The idea started when I was working in

corporate, uh, I was working in a couple

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of major companies, internationals,

and I decided that when I went out

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and started my first business in 2000.

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That it was going to use the same

principles as I had done in corporate

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world to capture systems and to

make them accessible to the team.

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But I thought, I've gotta be able

to do this for small business,

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small to medium business.

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And that's what we focus on.

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So we work with the business owner, with

the team to capture what the business

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does, and then to minimize the risk by

going through and looking at all the

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risks that we have to manage, make sure we

capture those and manage them effectively.

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And also to achieve the benefit.

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That's just effectively what it is.

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Anthony Perl: Yeah.

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I mean, what, why in the end do

people react so negatively to

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change, particularly in business?

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I mean, it's a thing where, as you said

before, that there's so much acceleration

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in terms of the use of technology

and change inevitably comes with it.

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So why are people so scared of it?

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Is it just that fear of

potentially losing a job?

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Is that what it's all about?

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John Tonkin: I think there's an element

of that, but I think significance

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isn't only through having a job.

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There's an element of significance

that we all like feeling valued and

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important in some way, manner or form.

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And so where we've got, you know, people

who feel that doing this is now going

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to take away some of their significance,

that would can be a reason for people

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saying, I don't wanna do it this way.

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The other thing is that.

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There's just that thing that says,

but we've always done it this way.

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Why do we have to change?

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And that's an assumption that change

means moving away from stability

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and rock solidness and moving to

something less stable, which it is.

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Because inevitably, you know,

the new thing is not going to be,

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hasn't been tried and tested for

many years and so on and so on.

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So there's always gonna be

that change element there.

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But what we have to do is to.

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Understand that that's what it is.

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That's what life is all about.

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Everything is change, evolution,

call it what you will.

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Everything is moving

towards the next thing.

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There's no staying still at simply.

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Some stages take longer than others

and we have to be ready for that.

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So we gotta put a positive stamp on it.

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Anthony Perl: Yeah.

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And change is often about learning

about the way we do things.

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Having to learn new ways to do things.

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I think that's, that can

be scary for some people.

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Again, depending on the, on

the age group that you're in.

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Yeah.

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But you, you look at it, I mean,

I look back at my own career, it

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sort of feels like I'm dating me,

dating myself a little bit here.

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But I remember when I started up

in the media, you know, working in

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television, we had a typing pool.

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Because typing was an art

form that had to be done on a

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typewriter in a particular way.

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Yep.

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Uh, we were lucky to have very

advanced typewriters that had a mini

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screen on them where you could see

about four words if you were lucky.

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Yeah.

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And now, of course, you know, the

typing pool doesn't exist anymore.

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It hasn't done for a long time.

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Yep.

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And there's an expectation that everybody

knows how to type to a certain degree.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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We don't, I don't even know if

they actually teach it anywhere.

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Mm-hmm.

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We all just kind of pick it up naturally.

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And so.

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You have to be able to adapt with

the technology and be able to learn.

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So some of those things, because some

of those changes, you can't fight them.

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John Tonkin: No, you can't.

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And I mean even learning to type, taking

back that one, I remember had, we had

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type quick typing teaching program

when I was the group training manager

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just in other poly many years ago.

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We introduced that so that people could

learn to type because we were working

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with, with the keyboards and so on.

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And there at that time, this was when.

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Uh, the, uh, I-B-M-P-C first came out

and we had that, and they had a mouse.

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A mouse, sorry.

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And the mouse was the fir.

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This was the first time we'd had a

mouse on the board, uh, to play with,

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on the desk to play with, and so on.

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There's this guy who had it.

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Now I'm not joking and I won't name

him, but Bruce had this mouse and

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he put the mouse up on the screen.

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He was holding it.

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It's good, but the problem is you

can't see what's behind it now.

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He was using the mouse on the monitor and

so on, and rather than just on the mouse

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pad and so on, the change was so quick.

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There were so many things that were

happening that it was just totally

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outside his understanding of it.

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Two seconds later, he knew exactly

what it is and how silly he looked.

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But you know, it's simply things

changed to the point where

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you can't keep up with them.

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You can't keep ahead of them.

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So, you know, you've gotta just adapt.

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You've gotta be ready to adapt.

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Otherwise you'll get caught out.

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So it's very simple and none of us

want to be on that side of the change.

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Anthony Perl: Yeah, I mean, I

think that's important, isn't it?

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It's, you don't want to be caught out.

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And I think it's, it's, it's why

it's so intrinsic to business to be

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able to cope with change, isn't it?

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Because, uh, if you don't cope

with change, if you're not prepared

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to change, the chances are that

someone that is way more efficient.

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Is going to adapt and use that

technology and overtake you.

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And so your business

might no longer exist.

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And I think if you, if you think about

that in the extreme sense, you know,

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photography's a great example, right?

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Mm-hmm.

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Where, where we went

from the dark rooms Yep.

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Where it took a long time to be

able to do it to mass processing.

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To instant processing.

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Yep.

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Or one hour processing that was done

within a pharmacy to completely digital.

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Yep.

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And so the whole process has

completely changed, where now, you

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know, there isn't much time at all

spent on, on printing a, a photo.

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You can do it at home or you can go to

a, a big chain place and plug in a USV

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and do it or a, or in do it from your

phone in a few seconds and print it out.

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It's not the.

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Sort of the big deal that it was

in time's gone by, we've moved on.

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And that's an important thing to

consider in your own business, isn't it?

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: 00:16:03

That that change inevitably comes

how you cope with it is everything to

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: 00:16:09

John Tonkin: your business.

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: 00:16:09

Yeah, I mean, the photography

one is very strong with me.

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: 00:16:13

I used to do a lot of photography and I

remember having my own dark room and I had

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a cheap Russian enlarger to start with and

then I saved up and I got a Durst MM 600.

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Which was fantastic

and all the rest of it.

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: 00:16:27

And you go through everything there

and I've still got all my film cameras

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and I still take film now and then

and use that, but not all the time.

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: 00:16:35

But there just, there are some things

where you think, all right, I can put

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: 00:16:39

a roll of film in and I've got my 36

shots and I can take it down to the

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lab and get it processed and then I

can go down and feed the eggs in and

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do the enlargement digitally anyway.

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: 00:16:51

You start to think, well, why don't

I do the whole thing digitally?

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: 00:16:56

But you know, in a box, just over

here somewhere, I've got my Kodak

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: 00:17:00

digital camera, one of the first

Kodak digitals that came out.

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: 00:17:04

And it was, I mean, Kodak invented

the digital camera and they looked

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: 00:17:10

at it, they assessed it, and

they said, this is really good.

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: 00:17:13

And they made some digital

cameras, but they didn't go

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: 00:17:16

very far and they stopped it.

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: 00:17:18

Whereas Kodak today.

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: 00:17:20

And so on.

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: 00:17:21

Where's everybody else who

said this digital camera stuff.

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: 00:17:23

This is really cool.

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: 00:17:25

It's a big thing.

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: 00:17:27

I've also got a Kodak 1912 pocket camera.

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: 00:17:30

The pockets must have been pretty

big because it was about, you know,

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: 00:17:34

280 mil high, you know, long and

about 55, 60 mil thick, and so on.

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: 00:17:43

A big pocket certainly, but nevertheless,

it was the leading camera in its day.

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: 00:17:48

We've got all the things that go on

like that, but it's just everything.

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: 00:17:52

We've gotta be ready for change.

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: 00:17:54

We've gotta have that focus on change.

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: 00:17:56

We've gotta reward people who

reward that approach to change

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: 00:18:01

that says it's going to change.

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: 00:18:03

I'm ready for it to change.

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: 00:18:05

I'm straight here.

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: 00:18:06

I'm right here with it.

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: 00:18:07

If it's changing, I'm wanna be on that.

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: 00:18:09

I wanna be part of that change.

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: 00:18:11

'cause if I'm not, if I'm not, I

know I'm going to be right out of it.

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: 00:18:15

You think about ai, AI

is such a big thing now.

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: 00:18:22

People who are looking at as

being quaint little add-on.

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: 00:18:25

Oh yeah, you can do it with

ai, I suppose, can't you?

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: 00:18:28

Well, strangely enough, you probably can

and you probably should be because not

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: 00:18:33

doing it using ai, you probably doing

it the old way, the slow way, et cetera.

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: 00:18:37

And of course there are things

that go wrong with AI as well, but.

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: 00:18:41

It's an example of the things

that are changing and that change

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: 00:18:44

really quickly that we can adopt

and we can look at the good side

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: 00:18:48

and pick up all the benefits of it.

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: 00:18:50

And we can look at it, we can

use it badly and get all the

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: 00:18:52

things that go wrong with it.

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: 00:18:55

Like the real estate agent who published,

you know, a property and it had, uh, AI

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: 00:19:01

or whatever it was, whichever version

of AI it was, had created, you know, the

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: 00:19:05

such and such primary school and the such

and such high school, which didn't exist.

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: 00:19:10

But it had put them in there

because that made it seem complete

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: 00:19:13

and it followed the algorithm it

had or whatever it was, and so on.

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: 00:19:17

So we've gotta have that focus

on promoting change, accepting

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: 00:19:21

change, promoting it, and really

recognizing when people do it.

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: 00:19:26

I'd rather have three people who

can change and be ready for change

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: 00:19:31

than three people who are really

good at doing it this way, using.

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: 00:19:35

Old methodology, old think

in everything they do.

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: 00:19:39

Simple as that.

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: 00:19:40

Anthony Perl: Before you go, don't

forget to hit the subscribe button on

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: 00:19:43

whatever platform you are tuned to.

392

: 00:19:45

Thank you for listening to the

Systems From The Box podcast featuring

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: 00:19:48

John Tonkin from Brain In A Box.

394

: 00:19:50

Details on how to contact John

and his team are in the show

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: 00:19:53

notes along with other valuable

links you don't want to miss.

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: 00:19:57

This podcast is produced

by podcast Done for you.

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: 00:20:00

I'm Anthony Pearl.

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: 00:20:01

We look forward to your

company on the next episode.